Photo Cred to Jo-Anne McArthur

My buddy with the last name that’s hard to spell! Karol has become a good friend since I first sent him an email about starting this show (he was co-hosting Animal Voices at the time) and I am proud to do a proper interview and promote his newest project, Maximum Tolerated Dose. The film is in production and Karol and Decipher Films are looking to the community to help make this project a reality. Expect us to ride this DIY Media project all year because I know that in the end its going to be an amazing resource. Throw your funds at this and if you have Bob Barker’s email then please send this to him!

You made two short docs last year from your travels in Europe. One from a rabbit slaughterhouse “The Rhythm” and another featuring an Open Rescue. Was there an intention of documenting these things to bring back across the Atlantic? I am wondering specifically how you think the open rescue concept translates to North America.

There was definitely not an intention going in to bring anything over the Atlantic as an idea. The only intention I really had in going to Spain to document that stuff was to offer myself as a resource for the Igualdad Animal activists, to essentially volunteer with them for the three weeks I was there and do whatever needed to be done.

That being said, while I was there, I visited my first factory farm in person, saw dozens of bulls killed in bullfights, visited the slaughterhouse in that video, saw the entire process of dairy production from artificial insemination to a calf being taken away for veal to milking, and on, and on… and I participated in my first open rescue. It was really a transformative experience for me. I had always admired it as a tactic, and I had always thought that it was a tactic that could be successful here in Canada. But after seeing it in action, I thought now more than ever, “this can happen here.”

The animal rights movement in Spain is still quite new, so access to many of the places we went was fairly “easy,” at least in comparison to what might be thought possible over here. I think in Canada we’re in a weird position because we’re so close to the US, where the Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act makes a lot of activists nervous. But based on my own research, I’ve never been able to find similar Canadian laws, on a federal or provincial level. So, we talk a lot about the AETA, but is it relevant to Canadian activists except as a cautionary tale? And are Canadian farms as hard to get into as we think? How do we know unless we try?

The open rescue technique offers three things that I think make it an important tactic for activists in Canada (and beyond) to consider: 1) It rescues real individuals from places of exploitation and offers them a new life. 2) By not covering their faces, activists take ownership over their actions and show media and public that they are willing to stand by them. 3) By not revealing the name of the farm, it removes the possibility of debate over which farm is a “better” place of exploitation to support – It’s not about a particular farm, it’s about the system in general. It also makes the actions harder (or nearly impossible) to prosecute, because it puts the onus on the farmer to come forward and claim the exploitation as their own before charges can be laid.

Pretty amazing as a tactic, I think. I hope my Canadian activist buds think about it.

Those two short docs are packed with emotion. The elation of rescuing an animal from an exploitative situation and then also the eery mechanized horror of a slaughterhouse. As someone behind the lens, how do you manage your emotions when you put yourself in these situations?

It’s hard to answer this question without sounding cliché, but I’ll try my best.

Basically, there’s no option but to manage your emotions, and keep them in check while this stuff is being documented. The rabbit slaughterhouse tour was done “officially,” meaning we had permission to be there and were given a tour by the owner. We were taken around, talked to the workers and to the owner about what they were doing, and got as much footage as we could. While one of us talked to the owner/guide as interference, the other would focus in on the more graphic stuff. It was done under entirely false pretenses (we made up a story about being from a “meat magazine” from Canada), and we could not under any circumstances break character. The option of being found out was not an option. I’ve also done some Canadian undercover work which hasn’t really been released yet, and it’s the same thing: You have to numb the part of you that wants to instantly stop what’s happening. You need to recognize the value of the documentation you’re getting, and really believe that it will result in a greater amount of animals saved, as opposed to just grabbing 4 rabbits and getting the hell out of there.

In these situations, and in doing some other undercover work I’ve done, you just have to be the person you say you are and deal with what you see later. It helps to have people around you who you can debrief with, and go over what you’ve seen. And there’s a certain amount of therapy in watching the footage again, and putting it together in a way that might reach other people.

The open rescue / investigation was the first non-undercover situation that I’ve been in, and managing emotions there was surprisingly similar… Because it doesn’t help to get really upset when you have limited time to investigate, document, and liberate. Every minute is precious, and there is work to do. I really wanted to do a good job, and get the best documentation possible. I cried a lot and felt all of those intense emotions in the days and weeks following, in private, with friends, in a safe space.

What was the motivation behind a film around vivisection and Maximum Tolerated Dose tests?

I should say first that the film isn’t about MTD tests per se, though the experiment serves as a powerful metaphor, and that was why I titled the film that way. I wanted to make this film because I think the debate about vivisection in the mainstream media is essentially ossified into two caricatured positions: on the one side, you have evil scientists who hate animals and will perform cruel experiments on them at their whim; on the other side, you have naive bleeding heart protestors who don’t understand science and want everyone with diabetes to stop taking insulin and die. But those aren’t the only people concerned about the issue, and hey, what about the animals as well?

My motivation for the film came by accident from two interviews I did early in 2010. I talked pretty extensively with two people, who both had happened to work in animal experimentation, had subsequently dropped out, and were now working to help animals in different ways. Their stories blew me away, not only because what they said was so haunting and honest, but also because they represented what I feel has been an untapped point of view in the debate. I had never really heard much about people who’ve participated in and ultimately rejected animal experimentation, and I wanted to know more about what they thought, and how they arrived at their conclusions.

So, in that sense the title is a metaphor in the language of the industry: How much can you take before you can’t take anymore? My motivation is to explore the issue by examining that fine edge between the “pro” side and the “anti” side by talking with the people who couldn’t take it anymore. I see it as a pivotal point for understanding the issue.

Talking with people inside the industry do you notice a weird disconnect with people who go into veterinary science or medicine out of a real desire to help, but or seemingly stuck in an industry that forces them to continually reduce animals to objects.

The film is very much in pre-production/production right now, so I am still arranging and need to conduct further interviews. But, the people that I have talked to have definitely felt stuck at different times. In Canada, we have very few veterinary schools, and we generally make our vets do some pretty shitty things to animals to get their certification.There was an interview that I tech’d for Animal Voices that really blew my mind about that process, and is really instructive for anyone who wants to know about the pressure to participate in animal testing, even as tool for vet training.

For scientists and medical personnel, the pressure to test on animals doesn’t just end at school. There is tremendous pressure to continuously refer to and perform animal tests to justify new techniques, new products, or even to prove old theories. The “life sciences” companies — the euphemistic term for companies that breed and provide animals for testing, or who accept contracts from other companies to perform tests so that the original company can claim that they “don’t test on animals” — are massive and exert a lot of pressure. Vivisection is an industry, and one of it’s key elements is steamrolling any “disconnects” that people might feel.

Though I’d like to interview some people who are completely pro-vivisection, as well as those who have always been opposed to it, I’m especially interested in speaking with the people who have seen both sides; Who have felt the allegiance and the disconnect, and have acted on their ethics.

I know talking with you we always talk about the real lack of information specific to Canada. Will the film have a Canadian focus?

I definitely want this film to have a Canadian focus, though as it stands now I have had an easier time finding contacts in the US. There are a couple of support groups for former lab workers that I’m in touch with, and they will be key to getting more interviews. If any of my Canadian pals out there have contacts that will help me to these ends, you can reach me really easily. In terms of the animals’ stories, I have been reaching out to a couple of different (Canadian) sanctuaries and am trying to arrange for interviews with people who can speak to the animals’ histories, and offer some idea of what their lives were like before and after.

The biggest problem in making this film will be finding the people to come forward, period. Many of the leads that I have involve people who may not be experimenting anymore, but are still part of the science industry (whether doing medical or product tests), and don’t necessarily want to come out publicly. There is fear of being ostracized or actually fired for speaking out. That is the real extent of the pressure to conform. I’m open to having people in the film anonymously (see the trailer for an example).

Who are some of your idols and sources of inspiration when it comes to documenting social justice issues, whether that be with media/print/photo or film?

I first heard about social justice issues through punk rock, so I’m a big fan of that kind of “citizen journalism.” Unfortunately, punk rock isn’t very informative these days.

I really learned about animal issues through my time at Animal Voices, and I feel like I owe a HUGE debt to Lauren and everyone who was a guest while I tech’d, co-hosted and hosted for continually opening my mind to new ideas and ways of thinking about animal rights. I don’t listen to many other radio shows (besides CBC radio pretty steadily), but AV alone offers listeners a huge trove of information, virtually instantly accessible. It is invaluable.

For media sources, I try to pay attention to independent media as much as possible, while also spending a good amount of time critically reading mainstream sources. I strongly recommend that activists spend serious time reading articles and books by people they disagree with. It will sharpen you 10x more than reading a Gary Francione article you already agree with. I am currently reading “Second Nature: The Animal Rights Controversy” by vehement animal rights critic and current head of the Fur Council of Canada, Alan Herscovici. It is blowing my mind.

Photography-wise, I’m very much inspired by Jo-Anne McArthur’s longtime We Animals project and often work with her, and I regularly check out Burn Magazine for photos and subjects that are both artful and communicate a strong message.

Film-wise, I’m always watching documentaries. Recently checked out EDGE: The Movie, Helvetica (a doc about the font I love most), and High On Crack Street: Lost Lives in Lowell, an old HBO doc that was alluded to in the recent “based on a true story” film The Fighter (which I saw, and hated). But the HBO doc was amazing. Fiction(alized) films about real social justice issues just don’t move me in the same way. I’m addicted to docs.

I also just rewatched Roger and Me by Michael Moore, and it was awesome. There’s a really intense rabbit killing / slaughter thread through the film that I didn’t remember, and bowled me over the second time through.

Your fundraising campaign offers a pretty unique opportunity as a top donor can see a rough cut of the film and offer their opinion. I am wondering if you struggled with ideas around artistic control before you made the decision to offer that?

I should probably point out that just because someone gets to watch the rough cut, it doesn’t mean they will have any artistic control! Hahaha. If anyone takes me up on that offer, I will be happy to show the rough cut to them and take their notes into consideration. It has taken me a long time, but I’m getting better at incorporating feedback into my work (I’ve always been able to take criticism pretty well, I just wouldn’t necessarily do anything with it). So yes, if you donate a good chunk of cash, we will watch a rough cut together, and I will take feedback… But I reserve the right not to act on that feedback if I think it will make the film less effective / less appealing / just plain weird.

If there are people who are financially able to support the film to any degree, any little privilege I can offer them is important for me to do. So I’ve tried to do that in a way that makes sense for everybody, with the whole fundraising scale. I figured that maybe seeing how a film goes from rough cut to final version might be a cool experience for someone, and something I could only provide to a choice few.

I know its intentional, but for others, can you explain why you feel it is important to make media that is grounded and responsive to the community. Everything from using your talents to help build sites (including this one), actually documenting theories being put to practice and keeping a keen eye on making your work available as a resource for other activists, that’s everything I love!

I feel like I’ve spent a long time building a skill set that is fairly valuable: I can do web design and development, graphic design, shoot/edit/process photos, compose music, and edit film. These skills are, in a lot of ways, the currency of the internet, and since so much activism is being promoted on the webz, I try to use those skills to support the community as much as I can. I’ve been doing web design since 1998, and it makes me sad when I see really great animal orgs with really terrible websites. If I can do work for cheap or free to create a website for them that is more visually appealing and attracts more people, that’s the least I can do.

As far as making media grounded in and responsive to the community, the animal activist community is my home, and I want to make media that is first and foremost useful for activists. Animal activists often face a really uphill battle in trying to reach people through the media, because there is a true cliché about animal rights media that it is often a gorefest and hard to watch. The gorefest films and stories have their place, for sure, and I’m not knocking them. They can be very effective at different times. Still, there is a real lack of animal advocacy media that works those gory images in through a trojan horse approach, when people might not suspect them. I try to create films that embody an artistic aesthetic but also deal with serious issues. The gorefest videos already exist, and I don’t want to make them again. I want to make videos that activists can show to their friends and family without having them turn off instantly. I also hope that my films will make it beyond activist circles, and be appreciated for their aesthetics and stories on their own, and get people to think about the issues that way.

And as far as theory goes, I’m serious about making films that communicate the ideas of complex theories simply and effectively, and recognizing that viewers can be led into accepting a hardcore position if it is communicated in the right way, with the right pace and sequence. MTD will be an abolitionist film at its core, and will be obviously anti-vivisection, though I’m not sure I or my interview subjects will ever use the word “abolition.”

Advice for the person out there who wants to document and bring these issues to light but just doesn’t know how…..

Well, it’s definitely not for everyone. There are a lot of things to take into consideration when undertaking this kind of work, including the legal repercussions. Be realistic and think through what it entails. It’s not a swashbuckling and heroic way to do activism: for every image or piece of footage you see, there could be months of research, work, infiltration and trust-building that goes along with that. That being said, the movement is always in need of up-to-date and local resources, to be able to show people, this is happening here and now.

If you think this type of documentation is something you can do well, and offer up as a skill to the movement, I would spend some time reading undercover / above-ground accounts from other activists, or if you know other people who have done similar work, take them out for a fair trade coffee and pick their brain. First-hand information is always helpful. And pace yourself… Don’t think you will change anything overnight.

It’s the start of a new year so why not following along. Resolutions for 2011?

My resolution is to make this film… And I will do my best to stay true and posi along the way. (Eds. Note – Correct Answer – Do 100 Push Ups)

Tofu vs. Tempeh vs. Seitan

Hail Seitan. I make my own using gluten flour and I have a personal vegan gluten rib recipe that I have to copyright before I can share it, because it is just that explosive.

Almond vs. Soy vs. Rice vs. Oat vs. Hemp Milk

I am currently loving almond milk, a) because I’ve never cared for oat milk or rice milk b) because hemp milk is really, really tasty and delicious, but has a surprising amount of fat in it and c) because I like to trim my soy intake whenever I can.

Favorite place to eat in Toronto?

Toronto is full of awesome vegan/veggie restaurants and I have eaten at and loved most of them. Still, my favourite spot is Nazaret Bar, 969 Bloor St. I’ve been going there pretty regularly for the past 4 years. It’s not a veggie restaurant, but they have amazing vegan Ethiopian platters for insanely low prices with the best service ever. You will never be able to eat at any other Ethiopian restaurants again because you will be so blown away with how good it tastes.

Apart from Nazaret, my favourite place to eat is my house. I make cheap (sometimes free), delicious vegan food for myself and others. I don’t so much like cooking for myself, so I like having people over to cook for them. Come over!

Cursed vs. Burning Love

HAHAHAHAHHAHAA. That’s a really tough one for me. I’m firmly of the mind that any band that currently exists is more important than those that are defunct. So by that token, Burning Love beats Cursed hands down. Still, Cursed was a pretty influential band for me, and I’ve yet to see Burning Love live (shame). I’m generally a big fan of all things Colohan, though if he does at some point go all “big beard psychedelic” on me, I may lose interest.

The Joy of Painting with Bob Ross vs. The World.

How did you know that I love Bob Ross? Actually, I would like to do a documentary on his life. He was quite the animal lover and regularly rehabilitated injured squirrels and other animals around his home. I remember one episode where he brought an injured squirrel that he had named “Pea Pod” onto his show, and talked about his love for animals and the importance of looking after them. He was a vegetarian, too!

Besides his love for animals and awesome hair though, the guy built his entire career on empowering people to think that they too could be creative and paint if they wanted to. And that is seriously punk rock. GET OUT THERE AND DO STUFF.